The Proposed Mosque at Ground Zero

[Hyde]

I know this has been discussed somewhere on here before, but damned if I can find it despite a search. So...

I'm sure by now, most if not all of you have heard of the proposal for a Mosque to be built approximately 3 blocks from the site of the 9/11 attack. Apparently, anything within 5 blocks of the former towers is considered "ground zero" as that entirely encompasses the area where human remains were found.

What are your thoughts on this?

I have an opinion I'll be happy to share(as I've been drawn into this debate on a different place I visit), but I'd like to see where you guys are coming from first. Give me your HONEST opinions about this...and be prepared to back up what you say with good reasons.

ADVANCE WARNING: Anyone who starts joking heavily or derails the conversation....I will delete your responses outright. I'm looking for actual feedback here...not jokes.

[Phakiel]

Generalization of an entire religious group for the wrongdoing of some of its members is inherently misguided. However, it would not come as a surprise that being such a sensitive subject, most people in the city and the US would certainly be against it and therein lies the problem as you cant go against the will and desire of the majority of the population. On the other hand it could go to public consult, but if the opposition would win, it would be somewhat unconstitutional as its imposing the will of a majority on a particular decision, on the muslim minority.

I just clusterfucked my head here. Summarize, not against it but it would be wise to not throw a stone at the beehive on this matter.

[Less Than Liz]

Bloomberg's speech hit the nail on the head. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703545604575407673221908474.html)

"The simple fact is, this building is private property, and the owners have a right to use the building as a house of worship, and the government has no right whatsoever to deny that right. And if it were tried, the courts would almost certainly strike it down as a violation of the U.S. Constitution.

"Whatever you may think of the proposed mosque and community center, lost in the heat of the debate has been a basic question: Should government attempt to deny private citizens the right to build a house of worship on private property based on their particular religion? That may happen in other countries, but we should never allow it to happen here.

“This nation was founded on the principle that the government must never choose between religions or favor one over another. The World Trade Center site will forever hold a special place in our city, in our hearts. But we would be untrue to the best part of ourselves and who we are as New Yorkers and Americans if we said no to a mosque in lower Manhattan.Probably one of the strongest arguments I've seen in defense of this center. It achieves this by tracing a long history of two pivotal principles upon which America was founded: first, the fight for religious freedom in the city which even predates the formation of the American republic and begins in the early Dutch colony of New Amsterdam. Second, it includes a positive defense of property rights, especially (taking a note from Madison) the protection of these rights for 'minority factions' from the violation by the majority.

Contrary to the assertion by some that it sends a message to radical Islam that we're weak, it sends "Fuck you, this is America, and you didn't scare us to the point of ceding the very principles you sought to destroy." Buildings are temporary. Principles are forever. There is no sarcasm in this statement: had we given into the mob's fears over those principles, the terrorists would have had won.

Our nation protects the rights of individuals to gather and use their privately owned property as they please. If people want to scrutinize the 'poor timing' or boycott the center once it's built because they disagree with its placement, then that's well within their rights. But boiling down its legitimacy to haphazard guesses, misplaced generalizations, or whatever it purports to do is treading down a very dangerous path.

EDIT: Actually, I don't think we have enough current events threads these days. I will fix that.

[moogle]

I hope this doesn't count as "joking heavily", Hyde, but I thought this was just spot on: http://i.imgur.com/TacgJ.jpg

I find it hard to believe people are really making this an issue. It's not even just about discrimination. Some people just don't seem to understand that we have freedom of religion in this country.

[Cyrus the virus]

What Liz said is pretty much the closest thing to my opinion.

I generally have very set opinions about this sort of thing but don't bother to really get into it. People believe what they want and not much can change that.

[Poofy]

Stop worrying what other people are building around Ground Zero and actually focus on building up Ground Zero from something more than just a giant crater.

[Faith]

I'm not sure what side I'm on. Reading all your opinions makes sense and I guess in a way I feel the same, but on the other hand so many people were killed that day by extremists that I do understand the fear that people have of muslims and more importantly how they must feel that within the area muslims are now building a mosque. I'm not saying they're extremists, but I can understand why people are against this. I also do believe that for most it's simply pure hatred and fear against any muslim.
One of our people (Geert Wilders, who you might know for his extreme opinions against the islam) is actually going there to protest.

[Karsh]

I can understand the concern for wanting to put the mosque in. I've never been to lower Manhattan but I'm sure the population is very very incredibly dense. I can see this as a very sensitive thing for the families of a lot of the victims of the attack. It could very well cause a hell of a lot of rioting that people don't want to be dealt with.

Upholding the constitution is all well and good, hell its the thing that sets us apart from all the others. But lets face it, we've deviated upon it in many instances. It's hard to say what side of the fence I'm on due to me not being there. Sure, I can have an opinion on it...hearing it in the news and posting about it on an internet forum. But, I feel that since I didn't really live the tragedy, nor ever been there period, I really don't know shit about it. The only reference I really have about it is the few people I've talked to who were at ground zero during the attack.

[Hyde]

As I said in the argument I was drawn into that sparked this:

Muslims as a whole didn't have anything to do with 9/11 and blaming an entire religion for the actions of one, relatively small group of people is abject stupidity. You shouldn't punish or blame all Muslims any more than you should punish or blame all Catholics for the acts of a few priests molesting young boys, or all Germans for the acts of current Neo Nazis. Discrimination is discrimination, even if you want to paint it in red, white and blue.

And while I "understand" the reason people are acting like this(and by understand, I mean I grasp the concept), it's not good enough. People came to this country to escape persecution for their religion. People of my religion were persecuted and burned at the stake because of the actions of a few crazies. What does it take for people to "learn the lessons of the past" ?

[PoolBoy]

I think the entire thing is bollocks.
There are many peaceful people in the Muslim religion.
I think we are being bigots.
Like honestly, it isn't the exact sight of the two towers, and i don't think you'll be able to see the mosque from the sight of the towers anyways. So whats the deal?
The people interested in the mosque seem to want to promote interfaith relations among other peaceful messages.
I think it is needed to show American's that not all people who follow Islamic faith are terrorists.

[Less Than Liz]

I do not understand the sentiment because it has been largely absent in lieu of all the other venues (http://daryllang.com/blog/4421) erected in the area.

[LadyAkuma]

I am really disappointed that this is being so strongly opposed. It's frustrating how some Americans hold such misguided fears.

Liz already said it; they have a legal right to build the Mosque there. Muslims are peaceful citizens of this country and they do not deserve to be discriminated against. I just feel like people are making this an "us vs. them" issue when it really shouldn't be. An American citizen is and American citizen. Many Muslim people died in those towers. Don't deny them a place of worship.

[Karsh]

It's really not that hard to understand. They don't want the church up in that area that teaches the religion the terrorists that killed their loved ones followed. Sure, I believe that Americans should be free about their religion, but I gotta play devil's advocate here. There are many people from Manhattan that will be very upset.

[Less Than Liz]

Uh, dude, we have churches erected up there and there have been multiple instances of vocal Christians engaging in domestic terrorism. We didn't stop such buildings being built near, say, where the Oklahoma City bombing took place.

Like I said, I would understand it if it was a sentiment based on consistent rationale ("This ground is important!" "I'm sensitive to this because of 9/11!" -- all of which are pure emotional reactions, by the way), but it's not. We're seeing these sorts of reactions all across the country against Muslims, to the point where attack dogs are being used on its followers (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/08/ap/national/main6754716.shtml).

[Karsh]

Well it's not about sacred ground bullshit, It's basically a discomfort with the Muslim religion. People can say one thing but I know that's what it comes down to. The terrorists we're praying to Allah during the attack, and unfortunately, this is how people view followers of that particular religion at this time.

[moogle]

By that logic they shouldn't be allowed to build Catholic churches near schools.

[Hyde]

By that logic they shouldn't be allowed to build Catholic churches near schools.

This.

[Karsh]

It's a little different because with this, we are talking about outsiders who attacked our country. With catholic priests molesting young men (usually in the 16-17 age range) they are able to be convicted of the crime. This terrorist attack is something that people will never be given justice for. Continuing to fall back on the Catholic church argument is a little cheap.

[Less Than Liz]

Karsh, I have mentioned domestic terrorism several times. I haven't mentioned priests at all. I am talking about folks who interpret Catholic dogma in such a way that it is used as a reason and justification for committing the same kinds of atrocities that occurred on 9/11.

Do I care at all about the feelings of people who interpret the Islamic Center as salt in the wounds? Yes, though I think they're wrong and misguided about who the culprit is (I also think most of the passionate outrage stems from groups of a certain political persuasion more so than actual NYC inhabitants, but I digress), but ultimately I am far more concerned about respecting freedom of religion and private property rights. They are designed to apply equally to all people, not to be selectively applied as a gift to certain classes of people based on emotional reactions.

[Hyde]

Continuing to fall back on the Catholic church argument is a little cheap.

When people call something "cheap" it's because it's the easy way out. Hence phrases like "cheapshot"...

And that's exactly what it is: The most glaringly similar example of a level of crime that we somehow don't find nearly as big a deal because the offender happens to share our basic religion. I'm not saying these people aren't punished...but they aren't punished NEARLY harsh enough, and we often(along with the Catholic Church in general) just let it go.

Except here's the difference...

Those priests do it in defiance of their religion, out of greed and selfishness. The muslim extremists actively believe that what they are doing is RIGHT. They're not doing it to cause chaos and to hurt us for the sake of hurting us. When they sacrifice themselves, they fully believe they are doing so for a cause and on the side of right.

That doesn't make what they're doing right in any way, but at least their intentions are pure. They're still monsters to us, but we do not have the right to treat all Muslims like terrorists. Like 9/11 was THEIR fault. It wasn't.

All Apples are Fruits, but not all fruits are Apples.

And yes, I agree with Liz. Freedom of Religion and the right to Private Property are things that make this country DIFFERENT from other countries and we don't have the right to retract based on Religious beliefs any more than on Skin Color, Ethnicity, or whether or not you like Steak Sauce on your Filet Mignon.

[Less Than Liz]

It's not "cheap" it's analogous. Civil society's foundation is the rule of law. Tossing that away in favor of arbitrary decisions predicated solely on emotional reactions and personal sentiment is a regression and, in my opinion, a fairly dangerous one.

[LadyAkuma]

It's a little different because with this, we are talking about outsiders who attacked our country. With catholic priests molesting young men (usually in the 16-17 age range) they are able to be convicted of the crime. This terrorist attack is something that people will never be given justice for. Continuing to fall back on the Catholic church argument is a little cheap.

These extremist "outsiders" should not effect how we treat our own citizens. We shouldn't retract the rights of others because people have misguided hatred or fear against them.

I say let them build a place of worship so that they can project messages of peace and compassion to their followers and let us rise about prejudice and blind fear towards people who had nothing to do with 9/11.

[Karsh]

Do I care at all about the feelings of people who interpret the Islamic Center as salt in the wounds? Yes, though I think they're wrong and misguided about who the culprit is

Maybe so, maybe not. I would be one to think that the Muslim ideology encouraged the suicide bombers. Sure, they are extremists, but a lot of the passages from the Qur'an certainly could potentially invoke aggression.

(Don't get me wrong however, the Holy Bible has some pretty fucked up stuff in it too.)

Long story short...I'm not a fan of churches.

[Cloud]

i think it is blatant disrespect, and goes against every principle and reason we are in this war on islam...err i ment terror.

I bet someone blows that bitch up

[Hyde]

i think it is blatant disrespect, and goes against every principle and reason we are in this war on islam...err i ment terror.

I bet someone blows that bitch up

You think *what* is blatant disrespect and goes against every principle and reason we are in this war?

The Mosque? The Prejudice? Be more clear.

[Devil King]

We have freedom of religion. My views mirror most of those on here.

[Phakiel]

I read that Sarah Palin was against this with her usual retarded quotes. Jesus that woman is such a piece of shit.

[Less Than Liz]

I read that Sarah Palin was against this with her usual retarded quotes. Jesus that woman is such a piece of shit.
Oh, yeah. On Twitter (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07/18/sarah-palin-to-muslims-reject-ground-zero-mosque/), even. "Peace-seeking Muslims, pls understand, Ground Zero mosque is UNNECESSARY provocation; it stabs hearts. Pls reject it in interest of healing."

[Phakiel]

Seriously, that woman is an offense to humanity as a whole. It really boils down that such and incredibly unintelligent person not only is allowed to infect any popular access medium, but its more painful that she does it because she has a following.

[Karsh]

Sometimes the opinions of people in power are not your own. Welcome to the world.

[Phakiel]

Yeah, I understand that, guy, but thank you for the free dose of condescension.

No, my problem is that the woman is really honest to god a cretin of the highest order, or actually also that she is such a piece of shit that she doesnt care what she says and is just fed the thoughts of really retrograded morons and then she blurts them out.

She is just a nobody who suddenly gets the gigantic spotlight because really and now she just rides whatever pipe they build her because it gets her fame and money, she has absolutely no integrity what so ever.

And to expand the comment, she aint really in power, people that follow her are in power, her bosses are in power, in reality she is a pint size pawn, she doesnt have the ability to change thoughts, she has a following because she is communicating the thoughts of others and thats not quite influence over people through power, just kind of their avatar.

[Electric Banana]

Question: I thought I heard on the radio just a couple of days ago that there is already a mosque near Ground Zero?

I'm tired from working all night, so I don't really have the energy to research this. Anyhow, I tend to avoid topics like this, especially on the internet, so that's all I have to say.

[Karsh]

Yeah, I understand that, guy, but thank you for the free dose of condescension.

No, my problem is that the woman is really honest to god a cretin of the highest order, or actually also that she is such a piece of shit that she doesnt care what she says and is just fed the thoughts of really retrograded morons and then she blurts them out.

She is just a nobody who suddenly gets the gigantic spotlight because really and now she just rides whatever pipe they build her because it gets her fame and money, she has absolutely no integrity what so ever.

And to expand the comment, she aint really in power, people that follow her are in power, her bosses are in power, in reality she is a pint size pawn, she doesnt have the ability to change thoughts, she has a following because she is communicating the thoughts of others and thats not quite influence over people through power, just kind of their avatar.

Damn son, you really hate this broad, don't ya? Alright well how about this, what is your opinion on just about everyone living in lower Manhattan (who is not Muslim) not wanting this thing put up?

[Phakiel]

Damn son, you really hate this broad, don't ya? Alright well how about this, what is your opinion on just about everyone living in lower Manhattan (who is not Muslim) not wanting this thing put up?

Yes, I find her vile and an offense to the human race.

Why are they opposed? What is their reasoning?

If its the whole muslims near ground zero shallow stance then the point is moot since, well, we have tired the discussion.

Also, everyone? Kind of a broad generalization there but if you have a source that says that the vast majority of the residents are against, please do link.

[Cloud]

You think *what* is blatant disrespect and goes against every principle and reason we are in this war?

The Mosque? The Prejudice? Be more clear.

I was a little drunk when I wrote that comment I'm not sure what it meant. But I believe that the mosque at ground zero would not be a good idea. If 16 buddist terrorists flew planes into some buildnings I don't think a temple would be appropriate right across the street. If 15 Chrisitians did it I don't think a church should be right there.

What I'm getting at is that people are judgemental, it doesn't matter if 99% of all muslims are not jihad, bomb making, AK popping terrorists. Those less than 1% fucked it up for all of them. I believe deep down in anyones mind when the see a mosque at ground zero NYC it will make there stomach curdle.

[Less Than Liz]

Sorry, sorry, maybe it hasn't been said enough: this is an Islamic community center that happens to have a mosque inside, in a style akin to a YMCA. We don't call nursing homes "churches" because they have a chapel in them (as most do.)

[The Revolution]

I'm probably the closest thing this forum has to a Resident of NYC. I live around thirty minutes away. My Brother was close to the building during the time, all the sob stories you want.

All I can think about when I see the ignorant masses wondering out loud, doe eyed and 'completely innocent' is that they probably make up a large percentage of these people fighting against the Mosque. It's a knee jerk reaction, doesn't mean it's true, but this burns me.

To everyone who ever uttered how great America is, you need to grab your shield and spear and fight against this extremist hate in your own backyard. Do you remember those anti-america rallies that were peppering the Airwaves to make us fear those people who worship the same God we do? Do you remember hearing friends and family wonder what made Muslims think we hated them? Example freaking 'A' through 'Omega' right here.

This is a horror to behold. A mockery of the America we all claim to want. Religious freedoms is the fairy tale we tell our children when we talk about why the 'brave' Pilgrims came here to set up shop. We looked down and shook our heads like disapproving mothers when other countries subjected Religious minorities to second hand citizen status... and those people can look at themselves in the mirror today and think they are fighting for that same America they once loved?

I applaud the Mosque. As a Christian, but more over as a sensible human being. You want peace? Embrace all people. You want more 9-11s? Then by all means, draw more lines in the sand.

Idiots.

[Karsh]

Yes, I find her vile and an offense to the human race.

Why are they opposed? What is their reasoning?

If its the whole muslims near ground zero shallow stance then the point is moot since, well, we have tired the discussion.

Also, everyone? Kind of a broad generalization there but if you have a source that says that the vast majority of the residents are against, please do link.

Maybe not everyone but roughly 2/3rd of the people. Which is more against than for.

http://dnainfo.com/20100805/downtown/new-york-state-residents-oppose-ground-zero-mosque-new-survey-says

I think the main reason is Islamaphobia

[Hyde]

I'm probably the closest thing this forum has to a Resident of NYC. I live around thirty minutes away. My Brother was close to the building during the time, all the sob stories you want.

All I can think about when I see the ignorant masses wondering out loud, doe eyed and 'completely innocent' is that they probably make up a large percentage of these people fighting against the Mosque. It's a knee jerk reaction, doesn't mean it's true, but this burns me.

To everyone who ever uttered how great America is, you need to grab your shield and spear and fight against this extremist hate in your own backyard. Do you remember those anti-america rallies that were peppering the Airwaves to make us fear those people who worship the same God we do? Do you remember hearing friends and family wonder what made Muslims think we hated them? Example freaking 'A' through 'Omega' right here.

This is a horror to behold. A mockery of the America we all claim to want. Religious freedoms is the fairy tale we tell our children when we talk about why the 'brave' Pilgrims came here to set up shop. We looked down and shook our heads like disapproving mothers when other countries subjected Religious minorities to second hand citizen status... and those people can look at themselves in the mirror today and think they are fighting for that same America they once loved?

I applaud the Mosque. As a Christian, but more over as a sensible human being. You want peace? Embrace all people. You want more 9-11s? Then by all means, draw more lines in the sand.

Idiots.

If this were a facebook post, I'd like it a thousand times. Well said, sir. Well said indeed.

[Faith]

Seriously there is a phobia against the Islam? wtf

[Cloud]

I don't have a phopia but having been to a few Islamic countries, I don't care much for the people or there culture. I know that many of them use religion as a cop out. The talk about allah and how go is so important, then they smoke and drink and go against many of the other values they preach against.

I can care less about a mosque, religous center or whatever the fuck they are building. I'm saying that the average joe smoe isn't going to like the idea.

People are prejiduce its just a fact of life. Everyone is to some extent or another, whether your concious or subconciously doing it is all that is different.

Let me also be clear I don't hate muslims, I just don't like some of them. Anyone who has been blown up or shot at by them can understand.

[Poofy]

If you take the whole East vs West Culture War seriously, then yes I can see why the simplistic view would take this whole Mosque as a blow to "our" side. You most definitely don't have to agree with that train of thought, but no one here is that enlightened where they can't understand where it stems from.

[The Revolution]

My Brother and I have muslim names. We were raised Christian.

In October of that year, the Patriot Act went out. My brother and I got letters 'gently telling us' what would happen if we were caught doing anything violated the Patriot Act.

Our parents never got it.

None of my friends did.

I'm pissed that my parents threw those letters. I wanted to have them framed.

I'm not 'enlightened' enough to be able to over look the sensitivities here. I'm not butt hurt enough that I can totally abandon my country. I'm rational enough to realize that reacting from fear and emotions has been the major cause to almost every armed conflict, racist feelings, and generational feud on this planet. It's never worked, no one has ever prospered from these things except the hate mongers and war profiteers.

Now, it's time to try something new. It's time to try to understand each other instead of react to half truths and fear of being hurt again. I can understand where the fear comes from. Just as well as I can understand where it will lead us if we continue to do what we've done in our entire human history.

[Liam McDohl]

I don't have a phopia

[...]

Let me also be clear I don't hate muslims, I just don't like some of them. Anyone who has been blown up or shot at by them can understand.

It's cute when people say "I'm not [racist/homophobic/islamophobic/etc.] ..." If that were true there would be no need to say it, you see.

So if you weren't islamophobic you wouldn't characterise them as "muslims" when you say you dislike them. You'd simply speak in terms of being shot at. The fact that they're muslims is entirely irrelevant to why you dislike them if you are in fact not islamophobic. If that's the case, why on earth would you even mention it?

You may think it's just semantics, but it paints a powerful picture of the intent behind the words.

Edit: I'd like to join hyde in calling rev's post awesome.

[Nickoten]

My Brother and I have muslim names. We were raised Christian.

In October of that year, the Patriot Act went out. My brother and I got letters 'gently telling us' what would happen if we were caught doing anything violated the Patriot Act.

Our parents never got it.

None of my friends did.

I'm pissed that my parents threw those letters. I wanted to have them framed.

I'm not 'enlightened' enough to be able to over look the sensitivities here. I'm not butt hurt enough that I can totally abandon my country. I'm rational enough to realize that reacting from fear and emotions has been the major cause to almost every armed conflict, racist feelings, and generational feud on this planet. It's never worked, no one has ever prospered from these things except the hate mongers and war profiteers.

Now, it's time to try something new. It's time to try to understand each other instead of react to half truths and fear of being hurt again. I can understand where the fear comes from. Just as well as I can understand where it will lead us if we continue to do what we've done in our entire human history.

Holy shit man, I never knew they sent out letters like that to "potential terrorists." I never got a letter because my last name is ambiguous enough to be a few things, but I sure do look the part sometimes since I'm brown. I feel like I'm not quite as alone in the harassment I suffered after 9/11. It was pretty bad, some of it was even physical.

[Less Than Liz]

That's horsepuckey, Rev. You should have kept that letter.

[Poofy]

People are already under the impression that there is an understanding that they cannot co-exist under the banner of peace. Due to their barely adequate education and misguided belief system, their minds have been made up for them a long time ago, and no new set of peaceful ideals is going to change that.

[The Revolution]

When you give up, you lost. To say it's already happened and nothing will change it over looks women's sufferage, equal rights for minorities, and previous religious co-existence.

I'll not ever argue the fact that people don't want to change. Most like not having to put up effort for... well, anything. But for sufferage, equal rights, and co-existence... most didn't want to change for that either. Ideals, laws, and out spoken movements paved the way for the begruding first generation that had to comply, the second generation who actually were placed with different people and found out they weren't so bad, and the third generation who don't even understand what the previous issues were about.

[King Zeal]

Yeah, I heard that.

Unfortunately, by the ending of the third generation, "stereotypes" have devolved into "culture", which makes people believe that it was never bigoted in the first place.

[Less Than Liz]

People are already under the impression that there is an understanding that they cannot co-exist under the banner of peace. Due to their barely adequate education and misguided belief system, their minds have been made up for them a long time ago, and no new set of peaceful ideals is going to change that.
To whom do you refer?

[The Revolution]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39032043/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

[Void]

Here's my opinion on the mosque at ground zero.

Its existence doesn't affect me, so I shouldn't care whether it goes up or not.

That's all.

[Tenacious P]

A hard-hitting post from Void.

[Hyde]

A hard-hitting post from Void.

Yeah...me...hitting my head hard against a post. lol

[Void]

*sigh* What else is new!